Curse

Kaida the Heartless · Aug 11, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Many of you are missing the tactical point of his build. People ignore Warriors in alliance battles. He's making use of this tactic to gain the upper hand. This would be most comparable to disguising a monk as a Me/Mo. The healer drops in target acquisition priority because they are a different primary class. He also states that he does the ammount of damage he needs to complete his task, and he needs no more (beating a dead horse with a bigger stick isnt going to kill it any further).

Now stop criticizing creativity. Warriors have the single highest DPS, but not AoE damage, which is necessary for this build's purpose; capturing the enemy shrines. Apparently you missed that/didn't read.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Aug 11, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livingston

I see absolutely nothing in this post that has anything to do with the purpose of my build, or anything that I haven’t already addressed. Are you talking about something else perhaps?

And your opinion of it not working has absolutely no bearing on the "fact" that it does work, and you haven’t said anything specific to show why it wouldn’t. All you have done is spouted generalities that are mostly true for warriors in situations outside AB conflicts. As I have with other people, I must ask, have you actually participated in AB. Do you know what the point of the matches is? Do you win often? If you said yes then you should have a perfect understanding of how and why thus build works.

Regular warriors do have better damage output, but only over an extended period of time. They can spike, but these spikes only affect one target, or mainly one target, with a little output directed at others, in the case of Axe builds. A warrior using my build can do one spike and take down the entire shrine. This is why it is better than a straight warrior for this purpose. While a straight warrior has no down time between spikes, taking a shrine in and of it self forces you to have down time, and enough down time to recharge my build, thus my build has no effective downtime either and takes the shrine faster than a warrior can. In AB fast shrine capture = more points = FTW

Livingston

im not even gonna get into this soloing shrines, thing, reminds me of a certain invidividual in my guild though he could solo other guild's guild hut with bodyguards and guildlord, i would like to see screenies of a dead shrine with no other dots of your team around, with one regen pip of only you being there, then ill belive you, trust screenies better then words . . . .

Livingston · Aug 12, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaero Gouki Kriegor

im not even gonna get into this soloing shrines, thing, reminds me of a certain invidividual in my guild though he could solo other guild's guild hut with bodyguards and guildlord, i would like to see screenies of a dead shrine with no other dots of your team around, with one regen pip of only you being there, then ill belive you, trust screenies better then words . . . .

Hahahahaha! Are you serious?!? You actually don't think people can solo a shrine? It's not that hard and not anything close to soloing a guild. From your words I seriously doubt you have played in ABs. If you have then you haven't played long. And once again if you have, you must not have a very keen grasp of the battle field. There are few classes that couldn't solo a shrine if you give them the right build. The only thing that matters in it is how fast you can do it. A straight elementalist could probably solo the shrine a bit faster than my build, but mine more than makes up for it when others show up or for running from shrine to shrine.

Dude I've been awake for 24 hrs plus today, but tell you what. I'll do you one better. I'll even make a video of it if I can find out how to do it. If it doesn't take me too long to set up I'll do it right after this post, but if it ends up being too much of a hassle, I'll do it after I get some sleep. You crack me up man, thanks for the laugh.

Livingston

Arkantos · Aug 12, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaero Gouki Kriegor

im not even gonna get into this soloing shrines, thing, reminds me of a certain invidividual in my guild though he could solo other guild's guild hut with bodyguards and guildlord, i would like to see screenies of a dead shrine with no other dots of your team around, with one regen pip of only you being there, then ill belive you, trust screenies better then words . . . .

If you mean shrines with only NPC's, use MS on them. They wont survive.

Now, I just went and tried this build in AB. Like any other nuking build, it obviously works. But I find I spend most of my time doing nothing because of energy. Because of that, I'm only useful to
help cap shrines. Sure, thats all you need to do, but I find it better if you could help offensivly more often.

BowLad21 · Aug 12, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Any decent ele doesn't need to hide him/herself. Any team with a decent monk doesn't need to hide, they can cap as a group. If you make a build based on soloing a shrine, either you are a bad monk, or you have no friends to AB with. If you PUG it, they will give you grife if you run any build at all. This build isn't better than hamstorm. In fact, hamstorm would cripple you, firestorm, then run away.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Aug 12, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53

i just wanna see 1 screenie of you alone with taht shrine dead with that w/e build with only 1 pip of taking over the shrine on the meter, with no one else around, thats all, i can't really beleive this can solo a shrine if the maker isnt comfortable enough to show a proof screenie, i believe pictures more then words, i know its possible to solo a shrine, i just dont think this build will cut it though

Racthoh · Aug 12, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Unless I missed a line/post, attributes and runes?

One major problem is that if soloing a shrine takes you down to 0 energy then someone comes along and you have to swap sets, all they need is a self-heal to prevent you from doing anything. A warrior can't pump out fireballs forever, and anyone with common sense will move out of AoEs but stay within capping range. Basically, I could sit and follow you around with just Healing Signet on my bar and stop you and if all it takes is one skill to counter your build there might be some problems in my eyes. Even the w/mos with breeze and mending learn after a while to move out of AoEs.

Admittedly there is a lot of stupidity in AB, but if you run into the off player that knows what they are doing you're in a lot of trouble. It can solo any shrine, my current warrior build can't since I have to aggro the NPCs (and three lightning hammers, orbs = pain) so it does have it's uses. But, those dumb players like to fight. You know most of those players pack a lot of defense and you just can't kill them without the constant pressure of warrior damage provided by an axe, hammer, or sword. (or ss... heehee).

Arkantos · Aug 12, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

One major problem is that if soloing a shrine takes you down to 0 energy then someone comes along and you have to swap sets, all they need is a self-heal to prevent you from doing anything. A warrior can't pump out fireballs forever, and anyone with common sense will move out of AoEs but stay within capping range. Basically, I could sit and follow you around with just Healing Signet on my bar and stop you and if all it takes is one skill to counter your build there might be some problems in my eyes. Even the w/mos with breeze and mending learn after a while to move out of AoEs.

Surprisingly lots of people dont move.

I find it quite funny, 5 luxons bunched together fighting, I just let a MS go and they dont move.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Aug 12, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

i love going in looking like a touch ranger with r/n and stuff, and spamming nr for all the lil wammos, and see them get mad cus their mending failed >:-D

scamPOR · Aug 12, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

mending + nr =/= 3 pips... Really you need to stop.

Livingston · Aug 12, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

As I said I'll even give you video proof.

Behold:

Video 1 (15.4 mb)

This was actually harder to do than it should have been, but not for the reasons one may think. We were beating them so bad that it was actually difficult to find a shrine that we didn't already own. And when one did go up, it was usually a flock of blue hitting it from every direction.

To get this one I had to specifically make a B-line to a shrine that the other side would get first off. This was after waiting through 6-7 battles of complete domination.

Nice faction though.

And just so I could give you exactly what you asked for I tried to get a screen shot during the video, but apparently my folder was full.

So I did it again on a different map with a different type of shrine:

Video 2 (11.9 mb)

As you can see from both the videos my energy is nearly full by the time the shrine is converted to my side. I usually have to wait longer for MS to charge than I do my energy.

Here is a couple screenshots taken during the video.

Screen 1
Screen 2

I stopped the video there, but I should have kept it going as I soloed the next monk shrine after that, and then took down a third shrine after that. The third shrine had a little help from someone who died trying to take it himself by the time I got there, but it would have went down regardless of the other guy as I was still able to use my entire skill chain, and I've taken that shrine down with it many times.

I would have simply started recording again, but it seems the current settings would have caused it to override the first video. Thus I took heaps of screen shots of it.

However, they are all saved as bitmaps so I'll need to convert them, which is something that will have to wait for tomorrow.

Livingston

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Aug 12, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

i believe you now

it is a working build

i kinda wanna try that now

Livingston · Aug 12, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

LOL.

Livingston

Dawns Tide · Aug 12, 2006, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livingston

They do provide for a solid damage dealer that will take a bit to put down, but they are not considered a major threat in this type of battle.

I just wish people wouldn't be so quick to call noob just because I'm using a staff instead of a sword. In most cases it may not be very effective, but this is an exception to the rule.

Livingston

Posting in a legendary thread.

Reroll an Elementalist.

Livingston · Aug 13, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Now, I just went and tried this build in AB. Like any other nuking build, it obviously works. But I find I spend most of my time doing nothing because of energy. Because of that, I'm only useful to
help cap shrines. Sure, thats all you need to do, but I find it better if you could help offensivly more often.

Did you really try it? If so, then you must have been doing something different from me, as you can see in the video, my energy is fully returned by the time I have captured the shrine. If you are running with other people, then you might find that you don't have much energy, as the shrines will be going up a lot quicker. Then again if you are running with others a fireball and a dragon's breath should be more than enough to help them catch the shrine easily and you can save MS for when another group engages and every is fighting on top of the shrine. And save meteor for whoever tries to run from your group as it will drop them and allow the group to catch up to them and finish them off.

However, the build is best used for soloing, and when doing so you shouldn't have any problems with energy. Having the other weapon set of +70 energy with no regen is a big part of this as well, as you need it as back up in case you get interrupted by PCs.

As for helping more offensively, the only time this should be an issue is if your faction is winning. And in that case it's not much of a draw back as you "are" winning and that's what this build is made for. Though I believe I explained why above, I will reiterate in different words.

If your faction is losing, as shrines are the biggest point gain in AB, the most likely reason will be because your faction has fewer shrines than the other. It may also be that you have the same number of shrines and the other faction is killing more people than your side is. In that case, taking more shrines is the key to shifting that tide.

Unless the other faction had more shrines than you for a long time at the beginning of the battle, you aren't going to see a case of your team having more shrines and still losing. You get too many points for having shrines for this to happen. I will admit that it could happen, only because I never rule anything out, but I've never seen it happen myself.

Thus the best way to ensure your team wins is to take as many shrines as possible as quickly as you can and then keep up that number. Thus you shouldn't need to help offensively unless you are simply defending a shrine. And I can tell you that using that skill chain in the middle of a shrine that's trying to be taken is a very good way of making sure that it isn't going to be taken. By the time those who got died get back you can do it again. This time though they may be ready for it, but more than likely they still won't realize that you are the one who did it, as no one expects it to come from a warrior. Even if you are holding a big staff, most people don't notice it in the heat of battle. I will often switch my weapons out to a katana and an exalted aegis just to throw people off, and to make sure they don't notice that the nukes are coming from me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowLad21

Any decent ele doesn't need to hide him/herself. Any team with a decent monk doesn't need to hide, they can cap as a group. If you make a build based on soloing a shrine, either you are a bad monk, or you have no friends to AB with. If you PUG it, they will give you grife if you run any build at all. This build isn't better than hamstorm. In fact, hamstorm would cripple you, firestorm, then run away.

Once again I see a post that seems to have little to do with mine. Where did I say that an elementalist would have to hide themself? And I really don't know what the hell you are talking about with groups hiding as I never said anything about this or even implied it.

Based on the style of play this build is suited to, which I believe is the best one to win, you do avoid conflict, but this isn't because you are hiding from the big scary group with their beautiful supreme monk, it's because direct conflict while trying to capture shrines equates to wasted time whether you can beat them or not.

"If you make a build based on soloing a shrine, either you are a bad monk, or you have no friends to AB with. "

I'm not a monk at all, so how could I be a bad one? oO?

I usually AB with my wife and two pugs, but occasionally my friends will join in as well when they aren't playing DDO. In the case of more of my friends playing, it gives me even more reason to solo shrines as I know for a fact they will have no problem with one less man.

"If you PUG it, they will give you grife if you run any build at all. This build isn't better than hamstorm. In fact, hamstorm would cripple you, firestorm, then run away."

I've already addressed this. AB has nothing to do with what builds can shut down what builds. You have so many people on the field that there's more than likely always going to be at least one person in their who can shut you down easily no matter your build. Whether you ever come into contact with them or not is another question, but has nothing to do with this thread. If all you care about is having a build that no one can shut down, then you probably aren't going to be very effective in AB combat as you will have little experience with actually needing strategy, as you don't get this from taking uber cookie cutter builds and soloing high level areas. Anyone can do that, which is why the builds are so popular. Most people are sheep who don't want to have to think or actually have to fight to do anything. They want wins handed to them on a silver platter so they can feel better about themselves than they do in real life. Real playing has nothing to do with that, it's about having a good build which might not be the best thing in the world but still winning any damn way, because you have superior strategy and can out think your opponent. Not by constantly having to piggyback a monk on your shoulders to make sure you don't die.

Livingston

Farthest Point · Aug 13, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Touch ranger's can solo shrines so much easier.

Livingston · Aug 13, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Unless I missed a line/post, attributes and runes?

First post I have:

"I max out my fire attribute and tactics, then put the rest in strength."

Max out your fire attributes, which as a warrior should be 12 then put up your tactics as much as you can depending on if you have done the secondary class change quest or not, it will vary, but doesn't really matter.

As for runes, it's fairly obvious. You are only using Fire and Tactics. Warriors can't use fire runes, so of course you will want a tactics rune. Minor will work as the difference of +1-3 won't affect the build much, and I'd personally rather keep the health for degen and spikes that may get through DS. And of course as a warrior you will want your vigor and absorption runes. The highest of each you can get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

One major problem is that if soloing a shrine takes you down to 0 energy then someone comes along and you have to swap sets, all they need is a self-heal to prevent you from doing anything. A warrior can't pump out fireballs forever, and anyone with common sense will move out of AoEs but stay within capping range. Basically, I could sit and follow you around with just Healing Signet on my bar and stop you and if all it takes is one skill to counter your build there might be some problems in my eyes. Even the w/mos with breeze and mending learn after a while to move out of AoEs.

Admittedly there is a lot of stupidity in AB, but if you run into the off player that knows what they are doing you're in a lot of trouble. It can solo any shrine, my current warrior build can't since I have to aggro the NPCs (and three lightning hammers, orbs = pain) so it does have its uses. But, those dumb players like to fight. You know most of those players pack a lot of defense and you just can't kill them without the constant pressure of warrior damage provided by an axe, hammer, or sword. (or ss... heehee).

As seen on the video I have full energy once the shrine is captured. But you are right if someone gets there right after I have dropped the NPCs I don't have any energy, I can switch over to the higher energy set that I mentioned on the first post which will give me roughly the same energy I had to begin with, but as you said, they aren't going to just sit there and let me MS them. That's why I don't engage them. I switch to my other set and charge away. If they are something that can hurt me a lot like a ranger or a mesmer that can slow me, I put up DS as well, which usually gives me enough padding to get away.

A tactic that actually works pretty well is to simply switch to a sword and shield as soon as someone approaches. They won't know that you aren't a normally speced out warrior with no energy, and most things that you meet won't want to engage a warrior one on one, especially one who has just soloed a shrine without losing much health if any. So in most cases as soon as you start running at them, they take off. I then turn around and continue taking the shrine.

As said above, if someone comes and I can't scare them off, I simply take off myself. Most people won't sit on a shrine even if it has no NPCs and they know that someone on the other side knows it has no defenses. They may wait 5-6 secs (10 at most) just to make sure you aren't coming back, and then they leave, from my experiences though most people don't wait at all. They scare you off and then run somewhere else.

In the case that someone actually does just sit on a shrine. I move to the next one, and I have effectively neutralized a player from the other side, as all they are doing is camping one shrine that they already have, and I'm off getting more. Also if a larger group from my side comes, then they either go down or have to run away (and they do as I simply type in team chat, "NE shrine undefended") and watch the blue dots converge.

Now to address the case of following:

Most people don't chase me because I am a warrior and they don't know what build I am using. Most PCs do not want to take a warrior one on one. And most smart players in AB know that even if they can take a warrior one on one, it's probably going to take time, and time is of the essence in AB. There are idiots playing though, so I do get chased now and then. When this happens, all I have to do is find the nearest group on my side and run to them. I then turn around use glyph of LE, toss a fireball and that's usually enough to get the group to turn around and start attacking them as well until they die or run off. If they die I go back and easily capture the shrine that has no NPCs. If they run off back in its direction, I move on to another shrine.

In the case that you pointed to, of someone knowing my build and specifically targeting me, yes it would make my job difficult, but I've never had this happen to me. And we would also simply be neutralizing each other, but I would then pick a group and help them while you were left watching on the fringes in case I happen to break off. This only neutralizes you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaero Gouki Kriegor

i love going in looking like a touch ranger with r/n and stuff, and spamming nr for all the lil wammos, and see them get mad cus their mending failed >:-D

You're evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawns Tide

Posting in a legendary thread.

Reroll an Elementalist.

*Sigh* I really wonder how many people actually read these threads. I have to imagine they skim through the first post then go ahead and make their little 2 line replies without reading it fully, or seeing if there comments have already been addressed (dozens of times) already.

Even though I really shouldn't even bother, I will address this once again, as I don't want to see an uproar of agreeing from other goons who don't read.

All you have to do is read Racthoh's post to see why I wouldn't "reroll an elementalist."

Soloing shrines with an Elementalist is not practical, it can be done sure. My wife does it all the time, but it's not nearly as efficient as my build.

"WTF an elementalist has energy storage noobz. They can nuke you to the ground and shrines too FTW we B l33tz

" (hypothetical quote)

As I said before I don't need any more energy as what I have allows me to take the shrine, which is my one and only goal. The rest of my build allows me to escape when this is prevented. I've never had someone stop me from at least taking the NPCs, as I do it too quickly. So I don't need any more energy than what I already have.

If I were an elementalist that could solo a shrine as quickly as I can, I wouldn't be able to get away nearly as well, and dying = bad because it wastes a lot of time.

Lets look at some elementalist scenarios:

So I am an elementalist and I've taken down the NPCs. One person shows up. I might be able to take them down; I might not be able to. If I try to and they take me down, I've just wasted a whole lot of time. If I do take them down, more than likely it took a bit of time to do so. Probably 5-10 seconds.

With my build I would have either scared them away with my big sword and shield or left for 5-10 seconds and came back. Few are going to run from an elementalist without at least giving it a go. So my best scenario is a lot better than what could be expected from an elementalist. My worst scenario is roughly equal to the elementalist’s best scenario.

It is true that it may not always happen this way, but I've tried it with an elementalist and this is usaully what happens from my experience. Maybe someone can do better. If so explain it and provide video as I did.

Next scenario

So I am an elementalist and I've taken down the NPCs. A group shows up. The elementalist, if they were able to take down the shrine as quick as I could, is probably screwed at this point. They might be able to effectively run away if they are an E/W or an E/R as they could use the same type of protection as my build has and hit a speed boost. So in this situation it would do as well as my build. Not better.

However, there is one thing about that situation that actually makes it worse, not even equal. Groups will chase an elementalist consistently. With my build I will get chasers now and then, but I've never had a group show up while playing an elementalist and not have them chase me until I found a group on my side that was just as big, or they killed me.

The only way it could do it better is if it could turn around and take this group down in less time than it would take to run off to another shrine or to wait for them to move off and come back. If this can be done to a group of 3-4 on a regular basis, then I want it explained to me and shown video of it, and I will then concede that an elementalist can do my job better, and might switch over. But I won't hold my breath.

So that is why I'm not going to simply "Reroll an Elementalist."

As for other people who post similar detractions of my build.

If all you are going to do is post 2-3 lines saying this sucks or play something else, than take the time to actually explain why!!! Otherwise your post is absolutely useless and you are just wasting your time and everyone else who has to read your drivel, to actually find descent posts. Posts like that are not only a joke to the thread, but a joke to the board as well, because it's being filled with useless fluff. And if it's your intention to waste other people's time. Please troll somewhere else.

Good day.

Livingston

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farthest Point

Touch ranger's can solo shrines so much easier.

I have already stated that there are other builds that could do what I do and maybe even better. But you won't see a W/E do a better job with a standard build, which was my main point. Not to say that this was an ultimate build for AB, though I think it's a damn good one.

I also said you aren't going to see anything do it quicker. And even if you did the difference in time would be so miniscule as to not even matter.

Even that besides, I don't think a toucher could do it quicker. I'll try it myself, but I don't think it's going to happen. It is true that they would have an easier time of it when others show and could easily take one person down who comes to try and stop them, but that is also a cookie cutter build. It takes absolutely no skill to play and had no thought put in to coming up with the build (save for the one who introduced it and I doubt you are him).

So yes if you want to be a little sheep, then you should use a toucher instead of my build.

However, let me also make the statement that I'm not trying to get other people to use this build. I don't really want others to, though I don't mind if they do, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it here. The more people who use this and the more who know about it, the easier it is for others to mess me up, which I don't want. My only intention was to prove that a W/E bearing a staff in AB isn't necessarily some stupid noob that doesn't know what they are doing. And I have yet to read anything from anyone on here that can refute that.

Also I wonder if you are aware that you are using the same avatar (albeit with different words) as a long time board vet uses?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/member.php?u=38168

Livingston

Arkantos · Aug 14, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Livingston, is there any way to sum up all of your posts? I'm having a wee bit of trouble keeping up

Scourgey · Aug 14, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

OP, if you joined my team in AB, there would be no way I would accept you into my team. You simply aren't a team player, you'd run off and cap your own shrines thinking you are doing loads to help your team. Your build is inflexible and has very little way of helping other members of your team other than charge (which you won't be close enough to your teammates)

Most AB PUGs don't care about teamwork and pretty much any build can look like it is helpful to the team for user, I mean a 55 monk could claim it is doing a lot of teamwork by "tanking", so could the solo wammo who does 10 damage per attack and is able to kill a caster who just stands next to him (These also screams coward when you run).

It seems to me, that you want to encourage people to not do any teamwork by promoting an "great" build such as this.

Misc Merik · Aug 15, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

I might go get luxon 15k for my war after looking at that video

armored ele is the vibe im getting from all the chatter on why are you doing W/E with a fire staff.

not bad, but I was never a huge fan of those people who join my party then run off to solo points no matter how creative they have gotten in doing it.